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April 6, 2004
"Quixtar is Amway in web-friendly clothes"
By QBlog in
Julian M Bucknall is "a programmer by trade, an actor by ambition and a computer scientist by osmosis." He's apparently a British expatriate who came to the states to program and develop software. Bucknall authored a book about algorithms and has written several software-themed articles.
However, Bucknall's article titled "Business ventures and dreams" describes not software or algorithms but his experience with a Quixtar IBO.
...Well, as soon as Martin pulled out the nice multicolored printed four- page form from his briefcase, I knew something was up. He put a red pen down by the form. On the front page was some drivel about removing retail middlemen in the chain from manufacturer to consumer. Bells started ringing ever so faintly in my mind. He was spouting about IBM, about e-commerce, about how the retail businesses make profit, yadda, yadda, yadda. He then said that he was affiliated with a new kind of e-commerce company, and asked me to write it down on the form. Those damn bells were now deafening. I picked up the red pen and wrote down what he spelt: Q-U-I-X-T-A-R...Obviously Bucknall isn't a fan of MLM or Quixtar. It's interesting to me that, according to his story, what really solidified his opinion about Quixtar was doing some comparison shopping and discovering that he could purchase a Dell computer (from Dell) cheaper than buying a no-name brand from Quixtar. Apparently price is pretty important to Bucknall....And, in truth, the way the people high up in the pyramid make their money (apart from the upflow of commissions on commissions) is by marketing and selling motivational tapes and materials and seminars to their downline. Not to the general public, mind, but to the people they've recruited and to the people they've recruited and so on. The pyramid feeds on itself...
Comments
Why buy a no name computer from Quixtar when you can buy a Gateway computer from Quixtar for 10% off? If I would of had computers in my day I would of wrote some stuff down instead of waiting for my student Plato to do the work. Does this mean that he is going to sign up now or was this just his excuse for not getting in. Any excuse will do and it sounds like he picked a no name computer as his excuse.
Isn't Gateway laying off a boatload of people? So, why would anyone buy a Gateway if the support is drying up?
But you missed the point, the Dell had better options as discovered by the author.
Realistically, QUIXTAR recently posted an item (wireless switch) that was twice as much as Netgear.
To Paramendra Bhagat - you can tell you're a new IBO...you reference the standard "McDonald franchise" example...the oldest and most overused comparison there in AmQuix jargon.... Word of caution...If you really think no one makes money on the education and support system, then why do you think they do it? Think about it - does that statement even make sense?? Aren't they (and you) in business to MAKE MONEY??....it's the nature of the free enterprise system they are so fond of promoting....and Britt is one of the biggest offenders of these deceitful practices...he DID NOT make his millions and millions from Amway bonus checks...
You mean you can make money by educating people. Why didn't I think of that, it was up to my pupil Plato and then Aristotle to start making money teaching how to lead a good life. I lived broke and then my students developed seminars and books to make money. I'm sure they would have done tapes as well if the technology would have existed. Do you think colleges practice this deceitful practice and make money educating students? I wonder if that is a negative pryramid?? Or maybe there is a value in education? and maybe each free enterprise person ought to be able to decide whether their is value. If someone says college is not worth the price then they should not goto school. If somenone else says college is a great value then they will go to school. Free choices is what makes this country even better than my Athens. If someone thinks the tapes are a joke then don't buy them, if many others think they are a great value and teach how to lead a good life then more power to them. Unless the cons want to be dictators and deny everyone else their free choice to listen to tapes. That is what happened to me the polis of Athen denied me my right to teach and sentenced me to die. That was not free enterprise, but my pupils Xenophon and Plato captured my teaching and I am still going strong.
Ever heard of the word, deception, Socrates? With college, you pay money to get an education, and if you take the right combination of classes, you end up with a certain diploma. And hopefully, with this degree, you are better armed to go out into the world and make something of yourself. No guarantees, of course. No deception at all.
With AmQuix, the point of the system is supposed to make money for the people buying into the system. The hook is the people promoting the system have made their money in AmQuix already and they are sharing their knowledge so you too can repeat what they did and make millions in AmQuix. The deception comes in when one realizes that the people selling the system really made their money not in AmQuix, but in selling the system, and for the people buying into the system, there is less then a 1% chance they will ever make it to a point where they break even! And, the fact is, the people selling the system want it this way, because the more people succeed, the more people take part of the tool money pie, and the less money the people selling the system make! Contrary to college, it is very deceptive!
Nobody has stated that paying for education is bad, Socrates, and you should know better then to make large leaps of logic like this. It's the deception part that people do not like.
Thank you dmm for your wonderful lesson. In order to be deceptive you must not tell people where the money is made, however many groups are forthcoming on how the money works. The Quixtar BSMAA states that money is made on educational tools and gives people a choice whether to participate. Everyone in the quixtar business must sign a BSMAA so to say IBO's are being deceived is actually being deceptive on your part. If the people who make it are the top 1% then it means the achievers are the ones doing the teaching. How much better than college where a professor can get tenure and be totally incompetent and yet still teach. Take a look at the percentage of people graduating from college that never take a job in their educational field. The performers should be the one's that are teaching and this is why the best quixtar training systems are so effective. Just reading 3 books/month would change most people's lives if they implemented the info. Pros choose to get better and cons choose to get bitter. Thank you for your input dmm you have helped clarify things greatly.
Ah, but Socrates, do Quixtar systems tell of how much is being made, or do they just make a blanket statement that money may be made? Truth is, as evidenced in several law suits and Ruth Carter's book, that the big pins make upwards to 85% of their money not from AmQuix, but from the system. Yet, the system, as promoted, is said to be the way the big pins make their money, hence it is deceptive.
Second, if you want to argue deceptive practices in college, it is an different argument, and one that it think is rather weak. Every college professor I know told me a degree guarantees nothing other then I will have a piece of paper at the end that shows the world I graduated. And if I wanted to hang it right next to my toilet or in my office, that's my perogotive. And yes there are tenured professors that should not be teaching, but what relavence does this have to the college system versus the Quixtar system? Very little. Fact is the Quixtar system fails in the goal to make the particpants money in AmQuix an overwhelming majority of time. In contrast, if you look at the census data, the more educated you are, the better opportunity you have to increase your wealth and income.
Do you also do sites when professors make students buy books that the professors wrote? Or is this OK? Isn't this conflict of interest? This actually is closer to communism since your only alternative is to not take the class. If you take the class you must buy the book. Your logic is weak my friend. I suggest you go to Athens and look up Protagoras he argues with the same faulty logic that you do. Disclosure is the key and many organizations have done this and the ones that don't will have to change to stay up with the best. Many students are graduating with $30,000 plus dollars of debt and literally just a piece of paper they won't use. Someone ought to start a website. Maybe they already have. By the way Protagoras will charge you for your education so deal with it.
Again you argue the problems with the college system to somehow prove the Quixtar system is better? It's faulty logic to say system C isn't great, therefore system Q is. Each system, college and Quixtar must be tested and examinated on their own merits.
Sure there are problems with the college system, including professors who wouldn't sell a page if they didn't teach the course. And students who are deeply in debt and end up with a degree that is mostly worthless to them, but how does this have anything to do with the Quixtar systems? Answer: Absolutely nothing. But if you want to compare, just take a look at the statistics and it will show as a group, those with a professional degree (doctors lawyers) or a PhD make more then the group with a masters, who in turn make more then those with a bachelor's degree, who as a whole make more then those with just a high school degree, who fare better then the group who dropped out.
In contrast, less then 1% of all who ever do Quixtar ever make it to the platinum level. And even at this level, there is some question as to whether or not there is true profit to be made. So 99% of all IBO's end up losing money, regardless if they are on system or not. When you compare, I'll take education over Quixtar any day.
Last, as for disclosure that money is made on systems, this is relatively new development, thanks to sites like this one and other web-sites. Ten years ago, it would have been hard to find any information just how much money is made on system, and the pins still do not disclose numbers, only a small statement that money may be made on the system. And fact is, many IBO's still do not know just how much the big pins make and from where, and even worse, many still spout lies such as system money is not a profit center for big pins or that a majority of a diamond's money comes from AmQuix and not from the system.
So Socrates, it is you who has a logic problem. The problems with one system has nothing to do with the problems of another, unless you wish to compare and contrast. And no matter how bad the college system is, there is plenty of proof that show how well it works, versus Quixtar systems, which has plenty of proof to show they do not.
By the way, Socrates, there are already blogs about college professors and their "racket" of selling their own textbooks. http://professorblog.blogspot.com/
I don't post there because it is not something I have a big problem with. Truth is, I think all teachers should be paid more, including college professors, and if they can find a way to supplement their income, more power to them.
More faulty logic dmm. I have the scroll here somewhere with protagoras number. Even if I conceded to you that there was a problem, which I don't, you have problems with your thinking. There are only so many things in life to focus on so my point about colleges is very relevant. If a ship is taking on water and you find two holes one the size of a quarter and the other the size of a basketball you would focus on the bigger of the two problems and when that is resolved focus on the smaller. Their seems to be so much bigger problems to spend a life on that I am intrigued by you dmm. You use the examples of PhD's to say they make more than average person in quixtar. Where did you learn your logic? If you compare the average cost of a person in college to the average cost of a person in quixtar you will find that colleges lose that comparison every time. If you compare PhD's then you must compare to PhD's in the business and that is diamond. The average diamond - even just their quixtar income - makes more than the average PhD. Thank you for an excellent example dmm. You continue to shed light on this subject. You are an enjoyable person to discuss with. I have a question, are you seeking the truth or just interested in bashing. If you are seeking the truth and many people enjoy listening to tapes and reading books and it is practiced according to FTC and Attorney General Statutes, and it is disclosed, Why all the fuss, time, and money put into this?
My friend Socrates, you have a reading comprehension problem, which makes me seriously doubt you are who you claim to be. Please point out where I said, "You use the examples of PhD's to say they make more than average person in quixtar." What I said is the average PhD makes more then the average person with a Masters, who makes more then the average person with a bachelor's, who makes more then the average high school grad, who makes more then the average drop out. Nowhere do I compare/contrast Quixtar income with education level.
As for what I seek, it is the truth. As for the amount of time I put in, it really isn't that much. Posting on Quixtar boards are a distraction, and probably account for less then 5 hours of my average week. And money? I spend zero, unless you want to take into consideration what I pay for my internet access and divide by what percentage of my internet time is devoted on Quixtar sites. Considering I work online, that's a minimum of 40 hours a week I'm online, so it barely costs me anything.
Interesting analogy about the holes on the boats, Socrates. I contend you should ask which hole is the basketball size and which is the quarter, Quixtar or college problems, to a large enough sampling to make it a legit survey. See how many think college systems is the basketball and see how many think Quixar systems are the basketball? And of course, those who just do not care. You see, size of the problem, Socrates, is in the eye of the beholder. I believe Quixtar systems to be a bigger problem, and one that affects me much more personally, as I have friends and family losing money in Quixtar. In contrast, most of friends family are done with their education, and my perceptions of the college system problems pale in comparison to the deception I see in the Quixtar systems.
dmm if everything is disclosed there can be no deception. When you buy something at the store do they disclose to you their customer what percent is profit or do they say their is profit? I am glad you pointed out that problems are a matter of perception this is very good. So 9 guys with a problem does not condemn an industry that is within the rules of our government. I love it when a con displays someone not following the rules and then uses a fallacious argument like "if he is doing something wrong then they must all be doing something wrong" This is the style argument I find with most of my youth when I begin to teach them how to teach themselves.
Personally I found college more mentally stimulating. In college I found women's minds being challenged and stimulated. In Quixtar I saw them being challenged to be their husbands' quiet supporter and that they should be stay at home moms and wives. I've nothing against the latter, but there were many things said over and over at the seminars that were just boring. I love adventure and I did not see many women being challenged to go and explore the world themselves and to think for themselves. My ex mostly sends tithing money to the preachers he heard at functions, while in our community there are so many worthy causes that he could donate to. I just don't like the things I saw.
Thank you Lisa, those were excellent comments. You said how you feel and in a free enterprise environment you have a right to act on that and not do quixtar. Someone else may love what they get from that seminar system or find another seminar system that meets their needs. Alciabades at one time was a great student of mine, but then said he was bored with the theoretical and wanted to get on with life. Oh if he just would of stayed away from Syracuse.
"if everything is disclosed there can be no deception". I agree, Socrates, and I would love for big pins to disclose their books. Show exactly how much they make from AmQuix, how much they spend on their business, and how much they make off of tools. In the business world, everyone I wish to become a business partner with, I ask to see the books, and they ask to see mine. That way, there can be as little deception as possible. If I see something "funky", either I ask about it or I may potentially end the deal. In the non AmQuix world, this is how business is done, disclose everything, so there can be no deception.
Sure at Wal-Mart, I have no idea how much they paid for the product and just where my money goes. However, I know how the Wal-Mart business works and I also know there is a very good chance that I am paying something very minute over wholesale because that is how Wal-Mart works. Small profit on large volume. Besides, if I always do not like Wal-Mart, I can go elsewhere, which I usually do. I shop more at Target.
And last, this is true about Quixtar too. I could become a member/client of several IBO's I know. Problem is price is too much and in my opinion, the quality isn't worth it. But Quixtar retail has never been my problem with Quixtar. My problems stem from buy from yourself and teach others to do so models being illegal, ineffective and overall money negative, and the systems that preach this sucking money from the masses as big pins make significantly more from tools then they do from AmQuix. And Socrates, if you can show me, you know, disclose some facts and figures that at least one AMO does not work this way, I might just change my tune!
dmm, so your telling me when you buy a car even though you know that the car dealer and the car salesman are making a profit you demand not only the comisson records of salesman, but also the books of the car dealer? Have you actually bought a new car before or are you in la-la land. Proper disclosure is to state where income streams are and give everyone and equal opportunity based on performance. Your argument ealier about diamonds not wanting anyone to share in profit sharing is also weak. To carry your logic to its conclusion would mean you would never want anyone to win on your team, which means you would have a small team. Have you ever heard of a win-win business. Why is this point so hard for you. I would gladly take a smaller percentage of a much bigger profit sharing pot. As long as everyone has an equal shot based on performance it is free enterprise. dmm, do you really get the books and exact profit margin on every product you ever buy? When you buy a starburcks coffee do you confirm the profit margins with the server? Let's not get carried away here dmm. Many organizations are resisting change and are being passed by others who through proper disclosure and system requalification have created a legal, fair, and equitable pay for performance system. Anyone looking for a free enterprise opportunity can ask no more. That is why the citizens of Athens owe me an apology because I was condemned for corrupting youth by asking questions. Let people be free to choose dmm and lighten up on the next car salesman you meet.
When I buy a new car, I do tons of resarch. Mostly from the Kelley Blue Book site (www.kbb.com). I know just how much the dealer paid for the car because Kelley and other sources tell me. I don't mind the dealership making a small profit, but I tell the dealer outright I know what he paid for the car, and I don't mind him profiting, but if he's going to screw me on the deal, I'll drive to another dealer offering me the same car at the deal I want. I've bought several cars I've wanted from an owner that owns several dealerships in my town, without any problems.
As for the argument that diamonds don't want it is based on the fact that the big pins make significantly more on tools then they do from AmQuix. And I believe that if more pins were broken, the loss of tool money a diamond would suffer having to pay more tool breaks would be significantly larger then the gain in AmQuix profit. Therefore, for the diamonds, it is not win-win, because their overall profit actually will drop the more pins that are broken, because the cut in tool money would be larger then the gain in AmQuix money. Considering a diamond makes 85% - 90% of his money from tools, if a diamond's increase in AmQuix money was 5%, to maintain overall income, his tool money would have to decrease by less then 1%.
Last, do I know what exactly would happen to a diamond's bottom line if more pins broke? Of course not, because there isn't disclosure, which leads to deception, as we have already covered.
dmm - what you are really saying is you are not in the business, therefore you hardly know how the quixtar business works, therefore you haven't qualified for profit sharing on tapes, books and seminars, therefore you don't know the profit sharing plans of various organizations, therefore you are talking with no facts. Abraham Lincoln said, "better be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" Any properly set up profit sharing plan would be set up win-win to help more people qualify and there are plenty of the reformer diamonds in quixtar that are doing this. When you qualify for various businesses all details are explained just as if you are promoted to a vice-president then the profit sharing and other perks are explained. The important part to know is based on performance you can qualify for every dollar generated. This is free enterprise at its best and training from actual performers not based on longevity but based on results. dmm please in the future speak on subjects where you have knowledge and not conjecture so we can learn.
Ah, the old you are not a whatever and therefore you know nothing argument. It's classic "tapespeak", Socrates. And you know what? It's also complete b.s. I never fought in the Civil War, yet I've studied it a lot. I'm probably not an expert, yet, without ever suiting up for for the Union or the Confederacy, I know a whole heck of a lot.
True, part of the problem being on the outside and not the inside is you have rely on sources for your information, and not experience. Still doesn't mean one cannot learn a lot and know what he is talking about. And you say there are "reformed diamonds", and I say, "show me, don't tell me." Show me a diamond's tool income and his AmQuix income. Show me on a tape where a diamond says he's making the majority of his money from tools, and show me a bunch of new diamonds and emeralds that are breaking every quarter. Show me the proof, and I will start singing a different tune.
See, same old responses. If there was much to be made and there was as much enthusiasm as the Quixtarians claim to have about the business, then there should be no second thought in showing the forms that show their incredible wealth from the business. They are asking people to invest incredible amounts of money, they deserve to see the truth. Buying a car is a single transaction. Quixtarians claim it may take some time to build your business, even years, and they can't show you what you could make, proof? At least when you buy a car, the salesman makes no lie of what you are actually going to finally pay for the car. You'd of course have to figure what it will cost with the interest unless you pay cash, but you get what I am saying. It doesn't take an insider dmm to see what is going on. Good instincts.
One thing that makes this NOT Amway (hold, please, for the knee-jerkers) is that there isn't any inventory in question. Mary Kay and Amway are both something of direct sales, I guess, in that you buy inventory and sell it on hand. With Quixtar, you sell through a website or a catalogue. That's actually a bigger difference than some people give credit.
That is the marketing difference. I said nothing of the actual IBO downline and such. I'm not arguing that.
dmm - typical conspeak. Using your civil war example does not make you an expert in the greco/persian wars. You are saying since I understand one diamond systems compensation plans I understand all. Which is totally wrong. You are referring to the step function method that Bo is familiar with which is nothing like a profit sharing plan like the reform diamonds. A better example of what you are saying is if your friend took a job as a car salesman and the manager said if he showed competence we will make him a manager which qualifies him for a profit sharing plan. For your friend to demand all the details of the profit sharing plan before he showed a competence in even being a salesman is ludicrous. He should learn his percentages which he does qualify for as a salesman and then prove mastery in that area. When he is promoted then he should have specific profit sharing plan #'s. Even then the company could not guarantee his income because it is based on profitability, but I can guarantee that a good company would want the most profit sharers. This would mean a bigger profit sharing pot for everyone. What makes your example so funny dmm is that it is not your friend demanding all the details it is you even though you don't even sell cars or show the competence to lead in silent prayer you are demanding the car dealer to open his corporate books for your approval. Where did you develop such thinking? Have you been listening to Protagoras again. The car dealership owner gives full disclosure when he tells every car salesman that there is other bonuses when they qualify and when they qualify more specifics will be given. dmm do you know all your bosses bonuses and perks? The answer is most likely no because they probably haven't disclosed all their bonuses and stock options to the starting employee. The reform diamonds have given full disclosure so why all the fuss?
Who are these so-called "reformed diamonds" and which system(s) do they run?
As for my job, I currently work for a publically traded company. I can find out how much my boss makes by just looking up my company's board of directors, since he is one it, and it lists his compensation. Sure I do not know how much each person in the company makes, but I do have a company organizational flow chart and I know where I fit in and how much I make. I also know the salaries of the people underneath me, so I can come close to figuring out how much everyone else on the chart makes. I also have salary ranges for just about every job, because for every job opening, there is an inter-office e-mail memo that goes out advertising the open position (fill in from the company first) that lists basic salary ranges. So no, I don't know the exacts, but I can put out good estimates. In addition, everyone in the company is on the press release e-mail list, so every press release my company puts out, I get in my company e-mail, so there are few, if any, surprises.
If any of these "reformed diamonds" were to be willing to give as much disclosure as I wanted, I might reconsider and look closer into the "Quixtar opportunity". But my guess, and this is just a guess, these "reformed diamonds" still don't tell the whole story, still do a "buy from yourself and teach others to do so" model which is illegal and a money loser for the majority, and still rake in close to 90% of their money from tools, giving them less incentive for them to actually break more big pins.
"I love it when a con displays someone not following the rules and then uses a fallacious argument like "if he is doing something wrong then they must all be doing something wrong" This is the style argument I find with most of my youth when I begin to teach them how to teach themselves."
Isn't that the same thing you are doing right now? quit beating around the bush socrates. You keep avoiding the facts about quixtar and trying to attack other issues. Quixtar is a horrible crooked organization that promotes itself as the new hip way to finacial freedom when it has been swindling people of their money for over 50 years(counting when it went as amway).
"Husband of a former Quixtar IBO." Well. Why did your wife quit? I am a new IBO. And I think this is one great business. I suggest you guys give it a second look.
Most criticisms of the business are about the education and support systems. If you do all that BWW asks you to do, it costs you about $1000 over a year. That is less than a million you might sink into a McDonald's franchise.
But the point is, I believe I have come across the first draft of an education and support system that is revenue neutral. Noone makes money. All association takes place at MeetUps where crossline communication is deeply encouraged. And the only things you buy are a few books at Amazon.com where only Amazon and the author make money. That should take the suspicion away, don't you think?
Would you guys like to see that 5-4-2 education and support system? My self-interest is you will help me popularize the MeetUp.
Posted by: Paramendra Bhagat | April 6, 2004 1:20 PM