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February 26, 2004
Sandra and the Quixtar Meeting
By QBlog in
Each day I get several emails from people visiting this site. Most of those messages usually fall into two basic categories:
a.) You Suck
b.) Good Work
Those who know me will understand when I say that I enjoy both types of email. However, occasionally I'll get a message that really catches my attention. Last week, I received just such a message from a young woman named Sandra whose friend was interested in Quixtar and invited her to a meeting. I'd like to share that message with you (with Sandra's permission). I've made only minor edits for clarity:
Hi,I responded to her message by saying, "I'd love to know how that meeting goes." Well, Sandra responded with a full accounting of her experience at the Quixtar meeting.
My friend called me up last night to tell me that she was starting a business. Since my friend has only just turned 19, this surprised me a bit, but of course I wanted to encourage her. A little bit of pressing made her reveal that it was Quixtar. I've been researching it online today and it sounds like a scam to me.While you do say that it's not a cult, it sounds like they employ the same methods as cults. A friend of mine went to a meeting with the girl I mentioned and one of the slogans was "Weiners vs Winners". What the hell kind of marketing is that? Follow us or you're not cool? It sounds like something that belongs on the playground, certainly not something I want to be involving myself in at 22.
Sandra
Quixtar is dead! Or at least, it's out of the pictureI have always admired people who aren't influenced by peer pressure in group settings. Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a social renegade myself or maybe it's because I don't have any peers ;o) Whatever the case, I love it when people don't follow the herd and speak their mind at the risk of being ostracized by the group. Whether you agree or disagree with Sandra I think we should all give her props for doing what she felt was right, even if it might have been unpopular at the time.
for the people I was concerned about. Jenna has been brought back from the brink of cultdom, and we have triumphed over Ray, the too-tanned too-slick ex-hockey player. Go us! Ray was using some easily recognizable (and in some cases, morally questionable) techniques to sway the crowd, which pissed me off.He said that anyone who didn't get excited about the plan didn't understand it, intimating that those who weren't jumping up and down about his scheme at that moment weren't capable of seeing the Quixtar Vision. I was getting annoyed because I was sitting there knowing exactly what he was doing and not having an opening to say what I wanted to (which, by the way, is an effective method of not letting someone disagree with you). However, finally he mentioned the term "pyramid scheme" and when he paused to breathe, I jumped in with my "What differentiates this from a pyramid scheme?" and that got the ball rolling.
Ray was not overly fond of me to begin with 'cause I made a point of not laughing at his jokes, raising my hand to his queries or showing any kind of support for what he was saying. Now to have me interrupting his flow? Well! He did not seem pleased. I must say, he did try to handle me with humour and a wide-eyed "golly-gee" attitude, but his eyes were saying "Die! Die! Quixtar is my one true love!"... I tell ya, it was a riot.
I also asked him what percentage of people dropped out or lost money, and he said he didn't know. He asked why I'd want to know about the losers instead of the winners, and I said that spending "a couple hundred dollars", as he put it, was a risk for most people. Also, that most people took calculated risks, and that meant knowing all the information. I told him that no one set out to fail at Quixtar, but it was inevitable that some people would, and I wanted some figures on that. He said he didn't know them, and I asked who would. He said I should come to another meeting and talk to "Brian."
I asked him why he made statements that seemed designed to make other people feel stupid for not agreeing with him, and he made an innocent face, saying he hadn't intended to offend me. I let him know I wasn't offended, but that I did question his techniques for marketing his plan. Shouldn't people agree with him because they think it's a good idea and not because he has used passive bullying techniques? He didn't quite know what to say to that.
Basically, I think Ray did not like me very much. He took that opportunity to suggest a break, and to ask who was a red, yellow or green light. I shot my hand up for red light, which came as no surprise to the assembled group, I'm sure. Ray also suggested that the red lights might like to leave. *ha!* I don't think Ray liked the questions coming from the red light contingent. My friends and I left, and the mission was accomplished, since Jenna was no longer going to give them her money or go to another meeting.
- Sandra
Comments
Go Sandra & Jenna!! Good for you two - especially being so young - you know folks in your age group are 'targeted' because you ARE impressionable, and wish to make an impact on the world. This is a worthy cause - and they recognize it. There is also some truth in the fact that as your generation ages, SS will not be able to support you - and this 'scare tactic' is used as well - quite effectively I might add.
I agree with Ty - you are to be admired. Just so you know, open meetings such as the one you attended do not usually have 'breaks.' That was designed to get you to leave so as not to influence the rest of the prospects (unless of course they were moving on to the 'meeting after the meeting', in which case only existing IBOs are usually welcome). Your recognition of the manipulative techniques for what they were will serve you well - no matter what career you go in!!!
Unfortunately, I also have to chuckle at 'Kate's' response. Yes, there are a few honest, hardworking IBOs who really do have integrity and run their businesses above board...the problem is, I've found that they're always the ones on the bottom of the food chain...once you rise to Platinum or above, you are coerced into behaving in a way required to SUSTAIN your business, rather than BUILD it....there is a difference. There really is no such thing as an "Independent Business Owner" when you are under the wing of a Line of Sponsorship. The concept is truly an oxymoron...This is what is so sad and unfortunate about this whole thing.
Disenchanted
I am not Ty. Never have been. Never will be.
You said, "I agree with Ty - you are to be admired." Unless Ty said this somewhere that I'm unaware of I'm assuming that you are referring to me.
Just wanted to clear that up.
What a judgemental female of the canine species.
"I read a few negative links on the internet and I can't tell a scam from the back of my ass, but they say it's a scam and I BELIEVE IT! And then I see them standing up to people who are against them and their business, how dare they?! Bunch of jerks.
"With this in mind, I went to the meeting perfectly without bias and came out with one thing for sure. The bias I went in with that I didn't have was TRUE! Quixtar IS a cult! Sure it lacks any religious bounderies that require something to be a cult, but there are a lot of Christians in it and since I need to support my cultish claim, we'll just assume that Christianity is a cult. There, now I feel better. So yeah, I went to the meeting and TOTALLY disrespected the speaker because I'm so cool and right and worthy and he's not. And Even though he never said the word "Stupid" I successfully snuck it in. I'm so righteous. You have no clue.
"Anyway, I have a cool name, Sandra, and I want you to know that even though Quixtar is alive and well and people are making money with it, I successfully kept my friend from getting in. Now I can sleep better at night knowing that I'm not alone in this."
That was fun!
I am Ty. = )
I am also Ty. = )
I wouldn't go so far as to say I amdire Sandra. In fact in a way I felt sorry for the speaker. Making an ass of a speaker in a meeting does not slide you up the "Ty admiration scale".
Having said that, I think the speaker missed an opportunity to be honest and forthright and respectfully answer Sandra's questions, even if they were biased.
Someday Quixtar people will learn that simply being 100% honest will go a long way towards cleaning up the image.
That and a 40% drop in prices...
From Dwighty: "What a judgemental female of the canine species."
Yep, THAT'S THE WAY to win over people!
Hey, at least Sandra asked a few questions and was honest about it. Is there a problem with doing so? This is America after all.
Me, I went to a meeting about 8 months ago and I only listened to the speaker. I rather admire Sandra...
Dwighty: Let me get this straight. You're getting on my case for making the Quixtar rep feel bad by trying to insult me with carefully veiled swear words? Are you taking a page from Ray's book, perhaps? I was never rude to Ray. I asked him questions that any intelligent person should ask before giving their money to an organization that they've just encountered. Are you saying that Quixtar people, when "showing the plan" shouldn't be asked difficult questions? And when you say Ray was "standing up to people who are against them and their business"... really, Dwighty, if it's just business then there's nothing to "stand up" to. I think you're tying your emotions in a little too tightly with the Quixtar way. Business is business, and the questions I asked Ray were fair business questions. His evasion of and obvious discomfort with my questions made me think he had something to hide. Also, a cult can also be defined as "faddish devotion". It is not always associated with religion, but thanks for making that assumption and showing the lack of thought behind your post.
Disenchanted: Thanks for the cheer, much appreciated! I know my age demographic is usually seen as gullible. Tell a student "Hey, you can make $3000 a month and only work 5-10 hours a week", and of course they're going to be excited. I'm curious as to how many of the students my age are making $3000 a week... but of course, Ray isn't likely to have the statistics on that one. Nice hearing from you!
Kate: Thanks for the info. It's too bad Quixtar can't somehow regulate the methods their IBOs are using at meetings. Perhaps if they had a hotline to report some of the more questionable techniques some of their reps were using... does such a thing exist? If it does, please let me know!
Ty: Do you think I made an ass of the speaker by asking business-related questions? Would you buy a used car without knowing about accidents it had been in, problems it had encountered, etc? You want to know about the negative AND the positive before you invest your money in something. I'm hearing about great gas mileage, new tires and comfy seats from Quixtar, but I'm not hearing any of the negative. I think the questions I asked Ray were fair questions that SHOULD be asked before anyone puts their hard-earned money on the line. If he felt like an ass because of them, then maybe he needs to better prepare himself for his presentations. He can't expect a quiet, nodding flock at every meeting! Thanks for the comments, though, I'm interested to hear the good and bad!
Doug: Much obliged for the admiration! I know what you mean about sitting through a meeting without asking questions. There didn't seem to be an opening to ask for clarification at any point during Ray's presentation. As it was, I had to wait for him to take a breath between "amens" to throw in a question.
By the way, folks, I later heard (through the grapevine from one of the Quixtar IBOs) that Ray had taken the time to call people and warn them about me. I realize that there may be some respectable, above-board IBOs out there, but warning them about the possibility that a certain girl may come to meetings and ask trouble-making questions? Give me a break! Why not say "Hey, guys, some questions were put to me and I didn't have the answers. Why don't we work on finding out the answers so I won't feel like such a moron next time?". That seems more constructive than putting out an APB on the bothersome 22 year old.
I have no idea who Ray is, Sandra. And you can save your rambling for someone more interested. You started to bore me when you came off as a witch-hunting dog-queen of the universe.
"Oh my God! He said I don't "understand" it! He's CLEARLY suggesting I'm a stupid mother****ing jack*** retard buttbreath fat*** ****head **to ***** ***** and ***** a ***** ****! How DARE he!"
Yeah, excellent exertion of maturity there, Sandra. Kudos.
Dwighty, Ray is obviously the guy who showed the plan to Sandra. It doesn't take much to figure this out. Of course, we have no idea who or where Ray is other then he's the IBO who showed the plan, so his name is irrelevant. However, use some comprehension skills before berating someone next time.
As for Sandra's behavior in the meeting, were you there, Dwighty? Do you know exactly what went on and how Sandra's demeanor was? If not, you should not assume she was this arrogant, disruptive force you make her out to be. Perhaps she was a perfect lady with simple and poignant business questions that Ray could not answer. And wouldn't you think that any intelligent person should do his/her due dilligence when presented with a business opportunity, Dwighty?
And that's a big problem with IBO's, Sandra, as Dwighty so uneloquently proves. Asking simple business questions is frowned upon in AmQuix because the answers are not good for AmQuix. That is why they rely on cultish tactics and cultish devotion. You may have heard an IBO say before, "If the dream is big enough, the facts don't matter." Problem is, facts and truth matter, regardless of the dream, and fact is, AmQuix is a poor way to make money, and a good way to lose it.
Last, welcome to the AmQuix "con family" Sandra, and I hope you stick around and continue to be part of the community.
I KNOW who Ray IS. But I don't know him personally, nor have I "read any of his books."
And the "you don't know 'cause you weren't there" arguement only helps me more than you, chum. You weren't there either. So we can only go on what she's said (which has been the entire base of my statements).
Hey, you don't need to rag on me because you agree with Sandra. We all know where you stand on this issue, dmm. No sense in showing your rear about it again. Perhaps you you weren't so kneejerk about your arguements you wouldn't come off as silly as you do. But that's just my opinion and what do you care about that? Bottom line: You're only defending Sandra's character because you agree with her view point. That's pretty silly.
But then again, you are silly.
You silly, silly person, you.
If anyone here thinks that Sandra's experience is not what many disenchanted Quixtar IBO's have heard over and over again, than I must tell you, Dwighty, you are sadly mistaken. If anyone asked you to invest in their business but could not tell you the certainty of a return, you wouldn't invest. Plain and simple. I understand where Dwighty is coming from. I have many friends that are still under the Quixtar spell, both upline and downline, but for them, it isn't so much the business as it is the dream. There was one statement that was made to me at a meeting that was very powerful and kept me going another two months even when I saw the obvious flaws in the business. 'Those that fail at Quixtar, fail at life.' That statement was made recklessly and had shook me to the core. While those on the outside, like Sandra, don't understand the "freakish defense" some give for AmQuix, I do. I lost a great deal of my pride, knowing that I was "used". I believed in the dream. I credit Quixtar for one thing... That was waking me up and angering me for where I was in my life. That was a good thing. But where Quixtar and I so painfully differ, is that I chose to do it another way. I chose a business opportunity that gives me a real opportunity to succeed.
To Dwighty, look at where you are now and where will you be, at the pace you have been doing the business. Don't damn yourself for having flaws and for not being a Platinum in six months. Look at your vehicle. Step back and look at your vehicle. If you come in first int he Indy 500 in your vehicle, good for you, but then I have one more question... Just how successful would you be in a better vehicle? Swallow your pride. Admit you've been duped. Take a deep breath and walk away. Just walk away.
Dwighty: One thing I notice about your posts is that you rely on sarcasm and name-calling to try to get your point (assuming you have one) across. Do you have anything concrete and intelligent to say, or are you just angry because I'm a Quixtar detractor? By the way, questioning my maturity when you're calling someone a "witch-hunting dog-queen of the universe" puts you in a bad light and makes you seem a bit childish. If you have a valid point to make, make it.
dmm: Thanks for the defence of my lady-like decorum! I'm glad someone out there realizes the importance of asking questions about the business they're being asked to invest in. It boggles my mind that people (like Dwighty, apparently) think that it's wise to make business decisions concerning your finances without knowing what could go wrong. However, when their brain cells are being used up on thinking of creative ways to call someone a b*tch, I guess there isn't much energy left over to ask pertinent Quixtar questions. Let's hope Dwighty sees the error of his ways before he's swindled too badly (I'm sure he's going to write back now and tell us about the millions he's making, all because he had a dream.. tell us all about it!). Have a great day, I'm sure I'll be around awhile longer. Just reading Dwighty's ramblings entertains me enough to merit an occasional visit!
Jimmy: I'm glad you realized that pride shouldn't keep you in a failing business. Way to go! It's a tough thing to admit that something you invested hope and money in just isn't going to pan out, but a truly intelligent person knows when enough is enough. Glad Quixtar didn't get its hooks too deeply into your grey matter!
But Sandra, Dwighty is a child. Haven't you seen his picture on his Dwighty Show Web site? He can barely shave. I think he even had his mom pencil in that silly goatee with an eyeliner pencil. He's not even old enough to vote. He'll he can't even drive. He's a kid. Just a wee babe in the woods. If you really want to get your point across with Dwighty just offer him a giant lollipop. He loves those. Especially the red and white swirley kind.
Did you know, Dwighty, that ad hominen attacks are usually the last resort of an adversary? Can't attack the argument, attack the person.
QBlog: The sad thing is, I think he's around my age! Poor Dwighty. I guess this is one of those times where it's true that girls mature faster than boys. One day he'll learn to formulate a coherent, sensical argument. Until then, I have something to sit back and chuckle about. Thanks again for the web-space!
dmm: Good point.
Until I see my lollipop, Sandra, your pathetic attempt to look astute remains, well, pathetic.
I happen to be a newly registered IBO more in support of my wife than any personal desire. I did my research because of the negative stigma of network marketing, and about Amway itself. My research yielded a combination of positive and negative opinions.
Trying to be objective as possible, and stepping back to look at the business model as what it is, this is what I see. Become an IBO and re-direct your buying. Sign up others to do the same and have everyone contribute to a volume that gives % rewards. Each IBO has the same opportunity to increase their earnings in a similar manner. It's the same as the recurring commissions earned by any sales representative for marketing his company's products for which he earns every time his client makes a purchase- even if he does not make future visits.
I notice of the viciousness of some commentators, and the passion of others, and I believe that everyone has a right to make them. Hence the reason why I decide to cautiously enter the fray, but to try to keep my wits about me. I do not participate regularly in meetings etc. I do not buy books or tapes. I am trying to listen to both sides and take what I think can work for me.
I also believe if the model works as the proponents say it will, then the model must work on it's own merit and I am giving it a chance. But I am not going to pour money down the drain in the various 'optional' materials. And I have no desire to be in a cult, regardless of how passionate my uplines are.
So for all you negative voicers out there, your opinions are being heard. So too are all the positive ones. It's up to the individual to weigh the opinions expressed and make a decision that he/she can live with the consequences. What may work for one person may not work for someone else. Others may disagree but isn't that what life's about?
I like quixtar. I built the business for 1 year and stopped. It's been 5 years since I actively built the business but still get checks every month. My last check was only $750 but what job will pay you 4 years after you quit? That $750 is more than my people that work all their lives get from social security. I do plan to return and build it to a bigger level when I need to and want to. But I am happy and comfortable now. It works. It just depends on how you work it.
But Jasato, are the checks you get enough to live on? Are you or aren't you retired? Because that's what they always tout at Quixtar, work it 2-5 years for 10-15 hours a week and you will be comfortably retired.
Oh and Dwight, when you signed up for Quixtar, did you ask for any numbers at all? Or did they not matter? Now, Ray may not have had actual success and failure rates of IBOs and I wouldn't expect him to, but when I'm buying a stock, I look at all the important numbers - profit margin, p/e, return on equity, competitors, sales growth, etc. When I'm buying any kind of business or franchise, I want projections on sales, I want to know what kind of monetary investment I will have to make, I want a rough idea of what my profit margin and return on equity will be, and so would any legitimate financial institution lending me for the money to help finance my new venture. Telling me "a couple hundred bucks for a starter kit and money in the thousands (or more) will be rolling in" ain't gonna cut it for me, and it shouldn't be enough for anyone else making an intelligent business decision. Sandra had the right mentality, even if her questions could have been a little different and Ray didn't like that. Ray, and the LOA he represents, just want would-be IBOs to pony up the money for a starter kit and follow the plan with a glassy-eyed devotion (sales projections, return on equity and profit margins be damned). For that reason, I will never be sold on Quixtar and will also avoid their products like the plague.
I have to agree with Jasato. I met someone a year and half ago who is now a close friend. After a few months of knowing him, I noticed that he never had to go to work. He would dedicate his time to his young son and his activities. After a few more months I finally built up the nerve to ask him what he did for a living. He told me about the business and that he had started it 15yrs ago. He said he worked it for about 3yrs and stopped, and for the past 12yrs had still been receiving checks...(only making sure to renew his membership each year..which I believe it's about $45-60 a year) How much does he make??? I'm not sure I would dare ask but I have seen the new house he's building by a lake in our city and have seen the new car he as bought. So, I asked he if he had reinvested his income to be able to sustain his life style and he assured he didn't. I have to take his word because he is a very close friend and don't see why he would lie to me. I'm new to this business... but I have learned that you have to work at it....yes, they tell you if you work 2-3 years you can make several thousand a month... and it's true you can...the key word here is "can" it's up to you to do it. Any company that wants you to invest in their company is always going to give you the "you can make this much" line. Every commercial you see on tv tells you that you can become cool if you drink this beer or loose all this wait if you use our product...again the key word here is "CAN". You have to work at it like anything else. If you could do this business for a few year and only accomplish $500 a month instead of the several thousand and be considered to be a failure at the business... you would take it??? $500 a month and not have to do anything else... Any investor from wall street would take that risk. No stock on the NASDAQ would give you those kind of returns.
Every business has some bad employees...It doesn't make the company bad. This company runs on word of mouth and if you have been taught incorrectly it can become a "chain" of chaos.
Anyway, that's my take.
It is important to point out that though some IBO's are extreme with their meetings, this is not true of all. Quixtar has a legitimate business potential (i.e., there are profits to be earned from selling products, exclusive or otherwise. PLUS, registering IBO's to do the same compounds your success). Making the business successful takes WORK, but that's true of any business. Any IBO who represents otherwise should be held suspect because they are misrepresenting the truth (not to mention that they will have a lot of unhappy IBO's in their downline who will ultimately leave the business).
Regarding the meetings, attendance is completely optional. Sometimes however, the rallies are helpful when motivation wanes. Also, they can be useful for sharing selling techniques (i.e., how to prospect for clients, how to sell products, etc.).
I hope this perspective helps.
Sincerely,
Kate
Posted by: Kate | February 27, 2004 11:04 AM