The critical Web site myth?

I just think that some sites are the products of bitter, jealous types who envy large, successful corporations that allow normal people to work the system and these types tried to work it, or their friends did, were shafted by their "uplines" or didn't follow the rules of the game and lost bigtime. Rather than blaming themselves, they push all of the blame as far away from them as they can, first hitting their organization and when that is not enough (or if it is bypassed) they go strait for the business, itself, despite the fact that several other people worked the system and became successful in ways far different than what these types claim all "successful" people in the business achieve it through.

Then again, that's just the negative sites. Nuetral sites like yours...I don't know. I know you're honest and that's all that matters IMHO.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 10, 2003 12:43 AM

To me it is just another "smoke and mirrors" approach of a Quixtar apologist to say that there are web sites critical of every large, successful corporation. It's just another line as far as I am concerned to share with their downline or from their upline to keep them hooked in The Business. They tell a person not to talk to anyone not involved in The Business, in my opinion to keep them from hearing critical information about it. I didn't think that when I was first approached by my upline, I obeyed them, but as time went on and I became more critical myself.

It's more personal than walking into a store to buy shampoo and then go home. You don't spend hours with a Wal-Mart associate talking about your dreams or crying at emotional testimonies at some function.

Maybe people need a place to tell about their experiences. For me personally, finding the different websites, anti and neutral about Quixtar was like a breath of fresh air. I didn't feel so alone and I found that there is life after Quixtar.

Posted by: Lisa | December 10, 2003 9:50 AM

There's life AFTER Quixtar?! Really? No way. I'm not sure I believe that. I'm an active IBO (Q can vouch for that) and I know for a fact that Quixtar is the only life there is. There is only Quixtar. That's how it was before I went in and that's how it is now and that's what my upline tells me and I believe him because it's exactly what I want to hear.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 10, 2003 11:50 AM

Thanks for the legwork, Qblog.

I think that a big chunk of the difference between views on the web about Q and those of the other big successful companies is in the percentages.

Let's assume the percentage of Q IBOs who are profitable year-to-year is 1%. Now, I don't know that to be the case, but it helps me make my point! So . . . our benchmark is One Percent. What is the pitch? "Save money, make money, help people, be free."

As has been stated by virtually all of the Anti- and most of the Neutral- folks in the forums, what they're so upset about is that (even if the stayed with Q for 2-5 years) they didn't turn a profit, much less retire with Freedom and a "residual" income that let them do as they pleased with their time and not worry about income. They "duplicated" their uplines, and still showed no results. Perhaps, in fact, they showed no results because they duplicated them!

Now, certainly people can earn income in Q, and they can do so w/o breaking the bank on support systems. But, that's not what they're told to do - and that's the point. They're told to follow in their upline's footsteps, get on (and stay on) a System, and they will find succees. I wasn't told it COULD work, I was told, flat out, it WOULD work because of "who I was and what type of person I was."

On to the other companies - what would they look like today if, say, 99% of their customers were unhappy because they didn't get the product, service, or result they paid for? Or, if 99% of their employees didn't get paid for their work, or the bonus they were told to expect? Or if 65% or more of their employees quit after a few months? Or if they had to depend on those same, churning employees for 80% of their revenue? Or if they claimed 1% animal tesing when they tested 99% of products on animals? Or if they professed to be only 1% Satanic and were found to be 99% Satanic? OK, that last one's thrown in for a laugh, but most former IBOs aren't laughing. They were told to do a certain thing for a certain period of time for certain expected results - and the results never came.

Of course, in every company, some degree of customer dissatisfaction stems from the customer's mood or approach or ignorance. Likewise, many employees expect to be perpetually paid for every hour they show up, as opposed to the hours they actually work - and run to the Web to rant when they get fired for laziness. But, as I said in the beginning, look at the percentages.

Posted by: chrisndana | December 10, 2003 12:03 PM

Here's another thank you, Q, for the work involved.

It's one thing to measure quantity, and it's another thing to measure quality of each of these negative sites. The big question is which, if any, of these sites have credibility and should be believed? For some, like the P&G Satanism myth, it is easy to dispell. Just go to http://www.snopes.com and look it up, and it brings you here, http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/procter.asp. For others, it would require a lot more research and leg work than just a visit to Snopes, but I'm sure some sites have a lot more credibility then the P&G rumor site.

As for the credibility of negative Quixtar sites, the big pins say the internet is, "The bathroom walls of society." But to me, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as there is tons of crap out there not worth the bandwidth being wasted, there is an equal amount, if not more, of great information online. And just because one site is pure B.S., doesn't make all of them pure B.S.

In the end, I think the more information available, the better, as long as people are willing to do their own research and decide for themselves just who to believe. Of course, this is the million dollar question, but along with my own experience, I've neve seen any question the math on Scott Larsen's amquix site. I also know the buy from yourself and teach others to do so mathematical model is one where only the few at top can profit while the majority loses money, and I've read the legal opinions and pending lawsuits re: Quixtar/Amway and MLM in general, plus I've read the Ruth Carter book. Which is why, in the end, I trust the majority of anti-Q web-sites and believe the information to be credible. And until proven otherwise, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Posted by: dmm | December 10, 2003 2:26 PM

I've seen a lot of this questioning of the business model. A lot of people say that the "buy from yourself and teach others" model is a pyramid scheme. Others say it doesn't work for the people down below who don't make any money. They then support this with stories of themself or their friends and family and people like them (since they're not at the top) while ignoring the success stories of others around them who are not at the top.

They throw percentages out with the idea that if they haven't heard of it, it hasn't happened. If only one person out of ten that they know has made money, then that means that only 10% of IBOs as a whole make money. I try and stay out of these debates and arguements now days because it's a moot point. You don't know and I don't know the percentages because neither of us have asked everyone and not everyone has been in the business as long as everyone else. It's a bad topic all around.

The thing I don't get it is that the numbers are there. The system has been built. The mechanics are in place. If you do this, you WILL get that. But ONLY if you do this, not that. People do that and the don't get this and they wonder where they went wrong like it's a big mystery. And I'm stuck wondering what's so hard to understand about following directions. But back to the idea that the math, or more precicely the theory doesn't work...

As my good friend Heinlein used to say, "Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do." The machinery does what it's supposed to do if you do what you're supposed to do and only what you're supposed to do. It's really not that hard of a concept.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 10, 2003 3:02 PM

Well Dwighty,

How is it working for you?

How long have you been "in"?

How much was your last bonus check?

How much were your expenses?

I know "it" can be done. The question I would ask you is, why? Knowing what you know about it, why would you want to do it? You know that if you ever attain the Platinum level, a high percentage of the people in your group will be losing money due to system expenses.

Is the system in place to help you sell more product and sponsor more people, or is the system in place to get you to buy into the system?

I want to post a quote from an IBO in 2000:

"I'm a business person. I have looked at all the numbers and the success rates, I have read the negative web sites and I have come to the conclusion that the Quixtar Business is a great opportunity. I don't claim it is an opportunity for everyone, but I do believe that I could help anyone build it, without alienating their friends and family, without spearing every swinging dick in the mall, and without making people feel bad if they choose not to take the opportunity."

Does that quote sound like you or me?

Posted by: mlmblog | December 10, 2003 4:43 PM

You're already on the attack, it's astounding! I haven't said one word about how I conduct my business in Quixtar and already you're the expert on it and what I do.

Well for starters, I've been in for not even a year. I haven't broken even yet, but I am pulling in more money than I was before. You do know that companies pull in money without making profit, right? You know this, I assume. So my company is growing in money, and at this rate, I should be churning the profit in a little over two years.

Do you know the average time it takes a usual independent business? Not a big franchise, but something small, like a family owned coffee shop. You know how long it takes them to break even? On average, try two years. Profit? Try five. Most businesses don't make it, and you know what? I'm not excluded. I may not make profit. I may not break even. Something might happen and my business could go down hill. But it's a risk I'm willing to take and that's how it works, in every business. Oh but you knew that already too, didn't you?

I'm willing to take this risk because I saw what it did to my friend. I saw the different man he became through this business and I wanted that. I didn't covet it, I just wanted to better myself and I didn't think the prospect of making enough money to support my family in the process of doing so was such an evil concept, let alone helping others do the same thing.

If someone's losing money in my group it's because either of four things. 1) They're not working it the same way I am. 2) They are working it the same way I am and it doesn't work, in which case I'm also losing money since we're doing the same thing and it's not working. 3) They've only just started the business and are in the fairly early stages of development. or 4) Something outside of the business came up, be it a death in the family or less or worse. If I can help in any of the situations, I will. I've made that promise to my downline and the oath to myself to leave not one team member behind if I can help it. I'm not bragging, but you asked the question. I'm not sure whether you're challenging me or genuinely curious, but there's your answer.

And as to your quote, well, judging by the context that I took it as, it sounds like something I'd say, though I certainly didn't say it and I really have no way of knowing precicely what s/he meant without clarification.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 10, 2003 7:13 PM

There are some glaring difference between a mainstream business (be it a family owned store, large corporation or part-time manufacturing operation in the basement) and the majority of Quixtar "businesses". Reading through some of the tax court judgements and IBO comments on various sites, it appears that many IBOs don't run their operation like a business.

I'm interested, Dwight or any other IBOs out there; did you construct a business plan before entering Quixtar? Does it include market research, financial forecasts, marketing plans? The biggie -- is there a dissolution plan which details how much money you will lose before closing the doors? Did a neutral third party review the plan?

Do you have strict guidelines as to how much money will be fed into the business over the next x months? Have you established independent accounts and accounting processes for business operations?

Just curious. I think there are a lot of Quixtar affiliates who technically own hobbies rather than businesses.

Posted by: Janet | December 10, 2003 8:06 PM

Hey Dwighty -

Just so you know, I wasn't attacking the way you do business, and I trust that mlmblog wasn't either. Specifically, I wasn't attempting to slander the idea that people make money in Q, and that (I imagine) thousands of people are making money (maybe even some profit) while they build their business in those first "2-5 years".

I was aiming more towards the lifestyle the people at the front of the stage project, and that the system tapes espouse - the whole concept of "freedom through residual income" that a prospective IBO might see on the white board or the cover of the glossy brochure. Like I hinted at in my last post, sure we should know better - we should know that we can't just click through our online application & run to the mailbox for our bonus check.

But . . . . as many of us have heard on conference calls or read in posts, the folks who DO "this" (what they're supposed to do) find that what they get is NOT "that" (loads of free time, a business that runs itself, perpetual income, etc.). In case after case (when they are successful, as many are), they find that the "that" that they get is much the same as what any entrepreneur with a few hundred employees and customers gets; a J-O-B that keeps them on the phone, on the road, and in the office all day & most of the night - devoting as much or more time to their tool & function business as to their Q business.

Again, I (we) aren't saying that there's no money to be made, or that any one of us couldn't theoretically support our families in this game. But, to do it alone (no system tools or funtions) by just retailing product, to stay true to that ideal and to actually TEACH your whole group to DUPLICATE your efforts (teach them to NOT go to meetings, buy CDs or books from a pyramid system, or attend rallies) and hammer out a living selling product is quite an undertaking. And, that brings me back to the original point: the "this" that you'd be selling to a prospect would look very different than the "this" that is sold by the tool-pyramid salesman at the front of the room in your average open meeting - since what they sell there is a lifestyle provided, in most every case, by their tool business.

If this is demonstrably the case in your group (many successes w/o tool & function money), then you're in the right place - and way ahead of the game. Otherwise, I think that what the Anti- folks are saying here is that while it often seems like, if you stay "on track" with present income trends you'll be profitable in X more years, what's often missing is the fact that the folks who are usually up front (the "successful" ones at the meetings) not only had to pay for the meeting room (and/or plane tickets, hotel rooms, car rentals, the white board, the samples, the print materials, etc.), but they also just spent the afternoon driving or flying TO your city (or in my case, my city!) and their evening IN your city, before they drive or fly BACK to their city. And this was likely all done AFTER they finished their office work.

THIS SAME PERSON WHO JUST SPENT HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS SUPPORTING - AND MOST OR ALL OF THEIR DAY WORKING AT - THEIR BUSINESS TODAY IS SELLING THE IDEA OF FREE TIME AND PERPETUAL INCOME!!!

Free time? Profit? Dream lifestyle? The Platinums & Emeralds are working MORE than ever, all for little or NO profit, and the Diamonds only rake in the big money from the souls who fund their system. THAT'S why many of us are leaving, already left, or never signed up.

That's all we're saying. Sorry about the ramble.

Chris

Posted by: chrisndana | December 10, 2003 8:23 PM

Janet, with all due respect, nothing that you named decides whether a business is a business or not. If you want to cover every which base at the beginning, that's fine and dandy. But you are in absolutely no position to tell me if I am running a business or not. Webster's dictionary defines a business as "The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged" and though I admire your dedication to your endevors, I do believe the dictionary's definition takes precidence over yours. And since it lists nowhere the qualifications you mentioned, I could be running hobby just as good as running a business. My hobby could be my business and my business could be my hobby.

And Chris, again I reitterate, you're laying down a huge blanket statement based on a controlled survey. The people on stage, showing the dream, presenting the brochure, they've been in this for a lot longer than I have. I don't doubt that they were in the same shoes I was in, just as my friend below me is going through some things I went through a few months ago. What I'm saying is that a lot of people see this and stop there. They don't look at the entire forest but just the trees in front of them. It's not difficult, nor do I feel it is too much to ask that someone not expect to be where the guy on stage is in the next three to six years when the guy on stage has been working this and got to where he is after ten to fifteen years. It's not fair to think that way, not to yourself or anyone else. And that's why I think so many people get hurt and offended by this business and its system. They don't grasp the concepts of patience and perseverance.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 10, 2003 8:47 PM

JANET!

You are the yin to Dwighty's yang. Good to hear from you again. Just like old times.

This is why I love this Internet stuff.

;o)

Posted by: QBlog | December 10, 2003 8:56 PM

Dwighty --

With all due respect, those are some of the criteria the IRS uses to decide if an occupation is a business or a hobby. The definition was not one I pulled out of my head but based upon their standards. When the nice editors at Merriam-Webster are in charge of decided what tax breaks I'm entitled to or what losses I can write off, I'll accept their definition.

By your apparent disdain for the questions and decision not to answer same, I'll jump to my own conclusions about the answers in your situation and invite other IBOs to share their experiences.

Posted by: Janet | December 10, 2003 10:28 PM

QBLOG!

Sorry to be incommunicado -- been dealing with my husaband's health problems and recovering from the pain of sleeping on hospital chairs :) Finally had a free moment to check in.

No one seems to have changed sides in the endless debate. There is something oddly reassuring about futility.

Posted by: Janet | December 10, 2003 10:33 PM

Dwighty -

That's cool. I dig the groove you're layin' down.

I didn't mean to paint all LOS and Q as a whole with the same brush. I know there are honest, open sponsors out there, and that it isn't billed by Q as being a get-rich-quick venue. Further, I'll reiterate my assertion that if it's going well in your group & it's all about retail sales, I mean your group no ill will.

I was specifically taking aim at the prospectors who will look prospective IBOs in the eye & tell them, "In 2 to 5 years . . . . you will have all this freedom, time, money, whatever." When, in reality, the room contains new folks not earning a profit yet, and those 15yr veterans putting all their blood, sweat, tears, money & time into the business to make it work.

Really, now, if the slick brochures and onstage pitches preached, "You, too, can have all this . . . in just 15 years!!", wouldn't we see a few less registrations? I mean, most of us could secure a very comfortable living at our J-O-B and build up a nice nest egg if we applied ourselves to one endeavor (i.e., stay with one company & move up through the ranks) for 15 years.

And (I forgot this part in my last comment), if the lifestyle of the 15yr veteran on stage is financed principally by system cash, I think they have a responsibility to cut the new guy in on that information.

I was not told about it in the meetings, I had to find out for myself what "Multiple Streams of Ongoing Income" meant. That was the catch phrase on the front of the brochure used by the Global Business Owners Alliance (GBOA). This large Midwestern LOS (or AMO, or whatever) presents the "Multiple Stream" concept to prospects, but never gets to the details of WHAT those streams really are. I now know that they are:

1) Q bonuses from selling (or, more accurately, buying) Q products.

2) BSM cash from GBOA books/tapes/tickets.

3) BDP (Business Development Program) cash from the telecom/website/training revenue the GBOA generates.

Those of us not privy to the system cash inside scoop were told, "Q provides the infrastructure, products & bonuses, the BDP provides the training, and the BSM provide motivational support" The part about their (the speaker's) lifestyle being financed largely by non-Q income was conveniently left out. If there really are "retired" IBOs out there, sailing the seven seas, living off their residual Q income and not system cash, I haven't seen them post here - or elsewhere. Yet, that's the dream that is all too often sold to the newbie.

So, that's really my beef. I signed up to run a WEB BASED business selling Quixtar PRODUCTS from HOME and using THE WEB to recruit. Now I know that what's really being sold at the GBOA meetings is the lifestyle supported by system cash. For me, it wasn't even an ethical question - I just didn't sign up in Q to be in the book/tape/function/telecom/training/motivation business. And honestly, I only "lost" a few hundred dollars this year figuring it all out, so I chalk it up as tuition!

Chris

Posted by: chrisndana | December 10, 2003 10:39 PM

And, just for the record . . . . I'm not just crabbing on endlessly for the sake of argument. I sincerely feel that this issue (nondisclosure of system cash & unrealistic expectations of outcome (2-5 years to freedom)) are a BIG reason that so many sites/forums/posts out there contain negative information.

And for me, it's the only reason. I think Q's infrastructure is impressive, the products are pricey but OK, and the web site is cool. It's the conduct of the Pins & AMOs that prompted my search for an outlet like this one.

Posted by: chrisndana | December 10, 2003 10:46 PM

Ok, Janet.

I'll gladly answer your questions if you'll answer mine.

1) What business(es) do you presently own/run or have owned/run?

2) If you have owned a business(es) but no longer do, what happened to it(them)?

3) Where did you get the information of the criteria required by the IRS? And if online, have you a link to the source?

4) Aside from only speaking with IBOs who may or may not be new to the business and may or may not know what they're talking about that the given timeframe, have you had any other action with or involving Quixtar? If so, then what?

5) Were you ever an IBO? If so, who was your sponsor? What organization were they with? How did they sell you the system?

6) What questions would you ask an IBO if they were to enter into conversation with you? If you list the same questions you've asked me, what others would you ask them?

Six easy questions. Answer those and I'll answer yours. Fair enough?

Posted by: Dwighty | December 11, 2003 12:37 AM

The missing element in every Quixtar dialog is the actual income figures. The inability to get this basic information perpetuates controversy. What cause a person to become involved in a business with so little verifiable facts?

How can comparisons be made to Walmart and other corporations who certainly were not founded on such scant information?

How many of these websites would disappear if verifiable income facts were available?

Posted by: Bob | December 11, 2003 12:43 AM

Wow. Feel the hostility.

Having nothing to hide, here goes:

) What business(es) do you presently own/run or have owned/run?

Fo about ten years, to various degrees on the full-time/part-time scale, I have been a freelance writer and database constructor. With family responsibilities (My husband and I made a decision to keep my son out of daycare) and working toward my academic goals (slowly scratching my way toward a PhD), there was one year where I was not comfortable claiming self-employment on my taxes. This was also the one year I didn't turn a 5-figure profit from my home office while taking many breaks to play Candyland and Chutes and Ladders.

2) If you have owned a business(es) but no longer do, what happened to it(them)?

As a hobby, I sold used books on ebay for a while although neither I nor my accountant considered it a business. For the sake of answering the question, though; although I made a profit on every book, the endeavor stopped being profittable. A cost analysis showed that it was not worth my time.

More importantly it stopped being fun.

3) Where did you get the information of the criteria required by the IRS? And if online, have you a link to the source?

The IRS critieria is part of my ready-knowledge database constructed from reading many books on small business management and business law.

For the Google-impaired, http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99239,00.html presents a quick look at it.

Note the first criterium: "You carry on the activity in a business-like manner." All of the questions I asked come under that umbrella and are questions that are generally asked in tax courts when making the decision if an endeavor is a business or hobby.

For examples, LaDawg has listed many links briefing cases where Quixtar or Amway IBOs have been found not to have been running a business at all (and therefore not been eligible for business loss tax writeoffs) because they had no business plan, no neutral advisors, no exit plan, etc.

4) Aside from only speaking with IBOs who may or may not be new to the business and may or may not know what they're talking about that the given timeframe, have you had any other action with or involving Quixtar? If so, then what?

I have no legal action whatsoever involving Quixtar. I have family members that are financially sucessful in Quixtar, have researched the company quite a bit and am working on two projects regarding modeling the variables involved in money flow within the Quixtar system. It's neat.

5) Were you ever an IBO?

No.

6) What questions would you ask an IBO if they were to enter into conversation with you? If you list the same questions you've asked me, what others would you ask them?

Obviously I would ask the same questions I've the IBOs here, yourself included. In addition, being fascinated with the human psyche and from a totally non-jedgemental standpoint, I would be interested in what they hope to find in Quixtar and why they think Quixtar is the best way for them to find it. I would bring up some character traits I have noticed in financially successful IBOs and ask if they are necessary for success, the result of success or independent of success.

These are questions I would ask anyone about any profession or endeavor that I find interesting.

Depending on the IBO, I might add a few more questions. Why the secretiveness? Why the refusal to answer simple questions about one's business?

Have I jumped through enough hoops to warrant an answer to a few simple yes/no questions?

Posted by: Janet | December 11, 2003 8:08 AM

That's right, hostility flows within my veins. When you ask a question, or two, or ten, it's simply for a just and noble cause, a "Search for truth." But heaven forbid I-an active IBO-ask you any questions. That's just me being hostile and defensive. For shame!

Thanks for answering my questions, though. And to keep to my word, I will answer yours:

"did you construct a business plan before entering Quixtar?" No, I did not. It was a spur of the moment thing. I saw the idea, saw the corporations requirements to buy in and I liked it. I bought in the night it was presented without taking a week or two or a month to develop a plan. When I was in, I showed the business model to my accountant who said it looked stable. A month into the business, I got a plan down on paper.

"Does it include market research, financial forecasts, marketing plans?" Market research - extensive. Market plans - extensive. Financial forcasts - no.

"The biggie -- is there a dissolution plan which details how much money you will lose before closing the doors?" I don't plan on closing my doors, but I figured if it came down to me living in the basement of my neighbors' house for a year, I'd have to fold my cards. Then again, I have my accountant who is also my financial advisor watching me and giving me tips. I trust he'll do his job and tell me when a better time would be.

"Did a neutral third party review the plan?" My accountant.

"Do you have strict guidelines as to how much money will be fed into the business over the next x months?" We have strict guidelines as to how much money will be fed PER month. But if you want to group a few together, the math certainly isn't that hard to do.

"Have you established independent accounts and accounting processes for business operations?" I have a seperate checking and savings account under a business name I have registered, yes. I am in the works of writing up a system, with my financial advisor, on how money flows into and out of those accounts.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 11, 2003 10:21 AM

Just curious, the business plan being presented to newbies states that you could be financially free in 2-5 years. Why would my upline Emeralds not already be Diamonds themselves? It's been 21/2 years and there are three Emerald husband and wife teams in our group, still Emeralds and Platinums who are still Platinums. As far as I know, they are all actively "pounding the pavement" to build their businesses.

My soon to be ex's goal is to get on SOT Cd's. Evidently they are more costly than tapes, yet they too are not as expensive to make. No one told us when they were presenting the business to us that a big part of our income, when we reached Emerald, etc. would come from books, tapes, speaking at functions and profit from ticket sales for functions.

To me this "business" is like a job because you still have to check in with your upline about what you are doing to build your business. If it isn't "duplicatible", it is frowned upon. I'd like to see an IBO who truly is and conducts his/her business as they are an Independent Business Owner. From what I've seen, they all spout the same jibberish and totally bore me.

Posted by: Lisa | December 12, 2003 10:07 AM

That's not the business plan I recieved. You're having an organization issue, not a Quixtar issue.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 12, 2003 12:03 PM

Dwighty,

Were you told in your presentation that a big part of your income would be tapes, books and functions once you reached a certain level?

I do agree it is an organization issue. Our group is under Diamond Tom Harper who invariably reaches up to Dexter Yager.

If your business isn't growing as you like, are you being told to buy more tapes, attend the next function or you'll be "behind 6 months in growing your business?"
Lisa

Posted by: Lisa | December 12, 2003 1:33 PM

Nope.

I'm being told that my money comes when volume is pushed, meaning when products are sold.

I am being told, however, that a lot of valueble information and motivation comes from CDs, books and conventions, but that's a given. They make it very clear that one can not make money by just going to the conventions and buying books or CDs. They really don't ever sell the income off that stuff, actually.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 12, 2003 1:52 PM

So you don't hear anyone say if you're not plugged in to the "system" you won't be as successful, you'll miss pertinent info, etc.? I have a problem with the way functions are handled. You sit for hours on end with barely any time for a meal break and until such late hours. I hated the big function in St. Louis because you had to wait until almost 1am for Dexter to arrive. That is ridiculous.

Anyway, I have many beefs with the organization, these are just a few.

Posted by: Lisa | December 12, 2003 2:25 PM

That's not how it goes with my organization. Sorry they're doing it to you. At ours, we try to avoid that stuff. We used to do it back in the day, but now they've worked to improve their system, cuitting down the conventions by more than half, and the price too, and the length of them. I like it, and I enjoy the functions. I go there to learn, but I do bring a few protein bars along in case I get hungry. Still, they give us quite a few breaks and they don't pressure us to stay for everything. "If you're full, you're full" they say. I like it.

Posted by: Dwighty | December 12, 2003 4:27 PM

Chrisndana,

Per your post....

> On to the other companies - what would they look like
> today if, say, 99% of their customers were unhappy
> because they didn't get the product, service, or result
> they paid for? Or, if 99% of their employees didn't
> get paid for their work, or the bonus they were told to
> expect? Or if 65% or more of their employees quit
> after a few months? Or if they had to depend on those
> same, churning employees for 80% of their revenue? Or
> if they claimed 1% animal tesing when they tested 99%
> of products on animals? Or if they professed to be
> only 1% Satanic and were found to be 99% Satanic? OK,
> that last one's thrown in for a laugh, but most former
> IBOs aren't laughing.

Great perspective -- and so true.

I ran across this thread and it's very typical. The problem with ALL of Direct Sales (MLM) is that they LIE to you about what can and can't be done to recruit you. Then they sell you THOUSANDS in tools and the success with ANY of these tool system is no better than any other business. This really is an industry problem NOT just a Quixtar problem.

This post on MLMLaw really hits it home.

http://www.mlmlaw.com/saleswatch/trainingprog.html

I honestly have nothing against Quixtar -- I'm actually an active IBO (but I build with none of this silly tool stuff that causes so much problem). We communicate with current technology and don't need to sell new IBOs thousands in tools. I actually did a post (a satire actually) that shows how a NEW group of 10 IBOs in an AMO system 'plug in' and do it all and the GROUP of 10 make $66 while their upline GROSSES a whopping $700 EACH new IBO on tools (basically making HUGE sums of money REGARDLESS of any sales volume). I can send you the link to the post if you want it, it's pretty good but I'm not going to post it publicly.

But, it is frustrating to see threads like this because there is little controversy about Quixtar itself, the AMOs cause all the commotion. Which interestingly enough makes it harder to build a business (the opposite of what the AMOs are should be doing!).

I agree, the past IBOs are big losers -- and maybe DeVos and Van Andel families that have never participated in the tools schemes (while many Direct Sales companies HAVE).

Take care,

Fred

PS. If all you spent money on in ANY Direct Sales was products you USED or SOLD there would be no scam -- it would (and is) a good business model. Your income if built right is about 10% on wholesales (downline) and 30% retail (outside network) -- averages of course.

Posted by: Fred | December 12, 2003 9:04 PM

Its really basic. Get in. Get core. Do core consistently week in week out until you are eagle. Go eagle again and you'll have Ruby and if you drive depth you'll get emerald from it. Lets see if you don't buy tools you aren't doing core steps and you won't go eagle, and surprise you won't make it. If half the people who joined didin't give up in 4 months then we wouldn't have such a huge turnover rate. All your percentages do is prove the lack of accountability and committed people in our society. They see 6 in 2-5 years and then after 2 months they still have no one so they give up. I never showed you a 3 in 2 month plan so why are you giving up already? The fact is most people don't have what it takes to stay committed day in and day out to a job AND a business of their own. So they find a world full of excuse makers online and to personally justify their quiting they post all the negative things they can on a web page someone else made. Lets face it when you decide that you aren't going to achieve your dream you're going to need some closure. And the negative web is their perfect place to achieve that. I have no problem with the fact that some people don't like it. For gosh sakes if everyone did then there'd be no one to mow my lawn for me, but those of you who spend countless hours discussing something you're not going to do...get over it. Join a web page with something you are going to do instead of dwelling on yer past experiences with a business you have no intentions of being involved in any longer.

Posted by: That guy | January 31, 2005 7:43 PM